Comments on: Turn:Serve:Wait :: Faith:Love:Hope http://www.witheringfig.com/new-testament/turnservewait-faithlovehope/ In principio erat Verbum... Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:53:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Stephen Hebert http://www.witheringfig.com/new-testament/turnservewait-faithlovehope/comment-page-1/#comment-33675 Stephen Hebert Thu, 07 Jan 2010 22:28:06 +0000 http://www.witheringfig.com/?p=1541#comment-33675 I'm gonna have to disagree with you. While I think you can translate βασιλεύς as "royal one" (though, that's a bit tortured), I don't think you can get away with translating βασιλεία that way. You bring up ἐστιν as your proof for this, but why must ἐστιν be translated "he is"? Why not "it is"? The Kingdom is an "it." More to the point, βασιλεία is a feminine noun. Are you implying that Matthew 3:2 should read: "the female royal one (e.g., queen) of heaven/sky"? The ending of βασιλεία makes it look like an abstract noun formed from βασιλεύς , meaning that it could probably mean anything having to do with the state/nature of the king. So, it's <em>possible</em> that it means some rather abstract idea about the king's essence, but I think that would be an early stage in the development of the word. By the time we get to the 1st century C.E., we are probably talking about "kingdom." I'm afraid I still don't understand your insistence on "royal one" rather than "king." I’m gonna have to disagree with you. While I think you can translate βασιλεύς as “royal one” (though, that’s a bit tortured), I don’t think you can get away with translating βασιλεία that way. You bring up ἐστιν as your proof for this, but why must ἐστιν be translated “he is”? Why not “it is”? The Kingdom is an “it.”

More to the point, βασιλεία is a feminine noun. Are you implying that Matthew 3:2 should read: “the female royal one (e.g., queen) of heaven/sky”?

The ending of βασιλεία makes it look like an abstract noun formed from βασιλεύς , meaning that it could probably mean anything having to do with the state/nature of the king. So, it’s possible that it means some rather abstract idea about the king’s essence, but I think that would be an early stage in the development of the word. By the time we get to the 1st century C.E., we are probably talking about “kingdom.”

I’m afraid I still don’t understand your insistence on “royal one” rather than “king.”

]]> By: Gerald R. Collins http://www.witheringfig.com/new-testament/turnservewait-faithlovehope/comment-page-1/#comment-33660 Gerald R. Collins Mon, 04 Jan 2010 06:01:57 +0000 http://www.witheringfig.com/?p=1541#comment-33660 Thanks for reading and responding. Question 2 concerning the word βασιλεία should also be royal one in the context of both verse 2 and 3. 3:2 {and lay forth change your mind makes near for the royal one of the sky 3:3 this (one) for he is the (one) uttered by Esaias the foreteller} The clue to this one is "estin" translated "he is" . To reverse the question how can the kingdom be a "he is"? βασιλεία is used 132 times in the gospels and with two being the form for soverign again personal identity not a place. In the New testament David is discribed as the royal one. The choice of the word belief was the based on use of the word kingdom as a word not used in Greek. It was just the starter for the discussion that the words used by christians which are not used in Greek. There are many such words again one of the words in Matthew 3:2 is not repentance but a change of mind not the relisting of our own short coming to God for he took care of those once and for all with the standing up again of Jesus from among the dead ones. In the last statement again contained one of those words use by christians with out understanding what the text has to say. It has been my pleasure to chat with you concerning the Greek text. Your brother by Christ Jesus Jerry Collins Thanks for reading and responding.
Question 2 concerning the word βασιλεία should also be royal one in the context of both verse 2 and 3. 3:2 {and lay forth change your mind makes near for the royal one of the sky 3:3 this (one) for he is the (one) uttered by Esaias the foreteller} The clue to this one is “estin” translated “he is” . To reverse the question how can the kingdom be a “he is”?
βασιλεία is used 132 times in the gospels and with two being the form for soverign again personal identity not a place.
In the New testament David is discribed as the royal one.
The choice of the word belief was the based on use of the word kingdom as a word not used in Greek. It was just the starter for the discussion that the words used by christians which are not used in Greek. There are many such words again one of the words in Matthew 3:2 is not repentance but a change of mind not the relisting of our own short coming to God for he took care of those once and for all with the standing up again of Jesus from among the dead ones. In the last statement again contained one of those words use by christians with out understanding what the text has to say.

It has been my pleasure to chat with you concerning the Greek text.
Your brother by Christ Jesus

Jerry Collins

]]> By: Stephen Hebert http://www.witheringfig.com/new-testament/turnservewait-faithlovehope/comment-page-1/#comment-33659 Stephen Hebert Sun, 03 Jan 2010 20:52:11 +0000 http://www.witheringfig.com/?p=1541#comment-33659 @Jerry, thanks for reading and thanks for commenting. I am puzzled by a couple of your thoughts: (1) I don't understand why you are bringing up the "belief" issue here. Are you suggesting that pertain to this post? If so, how? Also, I've never been convinced by the idea that there was no such thing as atheism in the ancient world. I do, however, agree that the modern idea of "belief" is probably very different from what was going on in the ancient Middle East at the time of Jesus and Paul. (2) Why do you think that the word βασιλεία (as in Matthew 3:2) should not be translated as "kingdom"? Or βασιλεύς (as in Matthew 1:6) as "king"? I think the ideas of king, kingdom, and kingship definitely make sense within an ancient Jewish context. In your view what would the ancients have called David? David the Royal One? I suppose that's another issue I don't quite understand. The word βασιλεία is typically translated as "kingdom." You talk about "royality" (which would be a neologism as far as I can tell) and "royal ones." Would "royality" be your preferred translation for βασιλεία and "royal one" your preferred translation for βασιλεύς? At the end of the day, what is the difference and why does it matter? Thanks again for commenting. I look forward to your response! @Jerry, thanks for reading and thanks for commenting. I am puzzled by a couple of your thoughts:

(1) I don’t understand why you are bringing up the “belief” issue here. Are you suggesting that pertain to this post? If so, how? Also, I’ve never been convinced by the idea that there was no such thing as atheism in the ancient world. I do, however, agree that the modern idea of “belief” is probably very different from what was going on in the ancient Middle East at the time of Jesus and Paul.

(2) Why do you think that the word βασιλεία (as in Matthew 3:2) should not be translated as “kingdom”? Or βασιλεύς (as in Matthew 1:6) as “king”? I think the ideas of king, kingdom, and kingship definitely make sense within an ancient Jewish context. In your view what would the ancients have called David? David the Royal One?

I suppose that’s another issue I don’t quite understand. The word βασιλεία is typically translated as “kingdom.” You talk about “royality” (which would be a neologism as far as I can tell) and “royal ones.” Would “royality” be your preferred translation for βασιλεία and “royal one” your preferred translation for βασιλεύς? At the end of the day, what is the difference and why does it matter?

Thanks again for commenting. I look forward to your response!

]]> By: Gerald R. Collins http://www.witheringfig.com/new-testament/turnservewait-faithlovehope/comment-page-1/#comment-33654 Gerald R. Collins Sat, 02 Jan 2010 15:39:51 +0000 http://www.witheringfig.com/?p=1541#comment-33654 I read with interest your articles and find that you speak or write with the same mistakes which the KJV brought forth in 1611 at the request of the King. It is of much interest that the terms you use, such as belief which is a noun you substitute for a verb in Greek, also the word belief does not appear in Greek as it is understood that everyone had a belief in a god. There fore the use reveals that your continuing use does not reveal the full extend and use of the Greek word for faith and its various forms. Another word I find in use is "kingdom" which again is a word that is never used in Greek but rather it should be "royality or royal ones" . When using kingdom it is necessary to force the sentence in English to something it not by leaving out many words in some verses. The above notes are taken from the Collins New Testament Polyglot and the Collins Old Testament Terminus. The above notes are not shown in the online samples. What is shown is the first page of each book in the biblical New Testament. I will return to read more articles. Your brother by Christ Jesus Jerry Collins I read with interest your articles and find that you speak or write with the same mistakes which the KJV brought forth in 1611 at the request of the King. It is of much interest that the terms you use, such as belief which is a noun you substitute for a verb in Greek, also the word belief does not appear in Greek as it is understood that everyone had a belief in a god. There fore the use reveals that your continuing use does not reveal the full extend and use of the Greek word for faith and its various forms.
Another word I find in use is “kingdom” which again is a word that is never used in Greek but rather it should be “royality or royal ones” . When using kingdom it is necessary to force the sentence in English to something it not by leaving out many words in some verses.
The above notes are taken from the Collins New Testament Polyglot and the Collins Old Testament Terminus. The above notes are not shown in the online samples. What is shown is the first page of each book in the biblical New Testament.
I will return to read more articles.
Your brother by Christ Jesus
Jerry Collins

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